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Post by dg on Nov 11, 2009 10:23:08 GMT -5
Nov 9, 2009, 9:47am » dg to bankedout
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Are you moving closer to your shop, or further away from it? Just curious. bankedout to dg Nov 9, 2009, 5:35pm »
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I'm moving much further from my shop. I'll be about 2 hours away. I'm going to Arena, WI which is about a half hour west of Madison, WI I plan to open a new shop to serve Madison. Our Milwaukee shop will stay open. I'll be about a 1/2 hour east of my vacation home in Muscoda. Arena is in a real nice part of the state. dg to bankedout Yesterday at 10:43am »
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I just looked at it all on the hybrid yahoo map. Looks like you are moving just outside the suburbs into the boonies (along the river). But wow, what a haul to your shop from there! Good luck with the new shop in Madison! Will you be able to hunt and fish right at Arena outskirts?
Funny, every time I think of Madison, I think of Brathaus two. Not because I've ever been there, but because a friend from the universiy of wisconsin got me turned on to their smoked beef brats. I used to order them shipped each year until they stopped the service. Oh well, I can now get johnsonville brats here at my local supermarket. bankedout to dg Yesterday at 6:02pm »
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Yeah, I probably won't make it back to our old shop very often. I will be able to hunt and fish near Arena. There is 44,000 acres of public land 2 miles North of my new house (borders Wisconsin River). Also some smaller plots in other directions.
Is it possible to move our discussion about this to another thread? I'm not sure if this forum allows you to do that. You could put it in my trading journal or start a new thread. I don't want to fill up sd's trading journal with such an off topic conversation.
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Post by dg on Nov 11, 2009 10:28:46 GMT -5
bankedout:
Can you go into those places to hunt and fish when ever you want; or are there specified seasons for each?
Are the fish in your rivers and streams polluted with mercury like ours here on the east coast?
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Post by bankedout on Nov 11, 2009 17:49:59 GMT -5
Thanks for moving the thread dg.
The river is clean, but not immaculate. The trout streams are very clean. Not much to worry about with mercury and pcb's. That is part of the reason I like the area so much. Where I live now, it is heavily polluted.
There are seasons for hunting and fishing. I think a lot of the locals ignore them. There is always something open legally to hunt or fish for.
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Post by dg on Nov 12, 2009 10:26:00 GMT -5
Here in new england, the fish isn't worth catching unless you are into "catch and release." Pollution from the midwest acidifies our land and waters, and the fish all contain too much mercury to eat.
I haven't been hunting since I was a kid. Then it was for racoon and oppossum. Now every so often turkey and deer actually walk through my yard -- yet my crossbow, my compound bow and my guns collect dust. I guess I need to be really hungry before I go out and kill bambi's mom or dad.
Speaking of hungry, just the other day I saw something indicative of our times that I had never seen before anywhere in the usa. At the entrance to the shopping center lot where I shop for groceries there was a man standing there with a sign that read "broke and hungry." That's when the numbers of 1 out of 8 unemployed hits home. Unfortunately I didn't see him until leaving and had nothing to spare; but I did notice a few plastic grocery bags at his feet. But imagine what the scene might look like in a few months when more people are in that unfortunate man's situation. Yet we can afford to spend trillions on war and trillions to save banks and large corporations. Go figure.
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Post by bankedout on Nov 13, 2009 21:25:03 GMT -5
I remember seeing photos of the turkeys in your yard.
It is a sad situation that the government has so much money for certain things but little for others. The priorities certainly are strange. I feel completely disconnected from those in power. If there was a reset button that I could push, I would not hesitate to hit it for this country. Government by the people, for the people is long gone.
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Post by sd on Nov 13, 2009 23:26:19 GMT -5
Congratulations Bankedout on expanding your business! That's a great step to be making in this economy! Sounds very Bullish! I wish you success in your expansion! "I'm closing on a house this month in an area that will allow me to do bow hunting too. I should be moving there in the next few months. I'm looking forward to doing regular outdoor recreation as part of my life. (hunting, fishing, etc.) "
Yes, having some diversification in your life is definitely important. Somehow life can draw us in to I've always enjoyed fishing, and taking up archery this year has now evolved into hunting. What kind of bow do you use for hunting? And what do you hunt? As a total novice, I'm learning as I go.... I'm using an inexpensive second hand bear tr36 compound bow- single cam, carbon arrows and mechanical Rage broadheads. I really enjoyed the archery target practice this year, Target set up in the yard; and gradually progressing in my shooting- I'm still not the accomplished archer I would hope to be- Have a long way to go there. Also did some target practive /intuitive shooting with a recurve, which is what I used in my youth target practicing. I may look to get a used recurve this coming year, for target practice and possibly hunting if i can get competent with it . What a difference in going into the woods and shooting down from an elevated position! You have likely experienced this. And drawing the bow and shooting from a 12' ladder stand with a 12" wide foot platform. And trying to judge your distance. I've learned to pace off my distance and flag it from the tree. Had to get an aluminum climber with a nice 21" platform base- That's a learning experience! This afternoon - about 4 pm , I walked 150 yards into the woods , climbed 16' up a pine near some scrapes and rubs I had seen last Sunday as i scouted the woods. Windy due to the front passing up the East coast, tree swaying - felt like being in a boat on the ocean. 30 minutes later, 2 does walked straight out of the scrub, and directly underneath the pine I was in, and actually circled it They never detected me directly above them. I had debated on taking the shot- the easy one that was 10 yards out and broadside- and decided to pass- I wanted a larger doe, .or a buck- As they moved off 30 yards, I saw movement and the buck-lagging behind in the scrub- maybe only a 4 pointer, followed the does. Saw nothing else as darkness fell- lowered myself down - left the climber attached- will be back in it and up in the pine tomorrow am (SAT) before daylight. The air will be cool and sharp as I enter the woods; as I walk through the leaves to the pine, , my footsteps will be quiet due to the prior 3 days of rain. I will use the climber and set my platform 15' above the ground. As daybreak arrives, I will set myself ready- knowing the leaves are wet, I won't hear any shuffling through the freshly dropped leaves- I will look for signs of motion in the wood below, and an appropriate opportunity to take a proper shot. My sense of anticipation will be high, my senses alert- Something that doesn't happen when I walk through the door at the end of the day......If I succeed in harvesting a deer, it will be used as food for the table. My intent will be to take only highly probable shots...... As you can likely tell, i'm involved in this new experience- one you are likely familiar with. Enjoy the time you take away from the routine! You owe it to yourself- SD
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Post by bankedout on Nov 14, 2009 10:20:10 GMT -5
sd,
I am a novice hunter. I do not own a bow. The only weapons I have are a 12ga shotgun that my uncle gave me. I have only shot it once! I have a 22 rifle that I bought and shot a few times. I also have a convertible .177/.22 air rifle (pellet gun). I need to learn a lot. However I do enjoy spending time in nature.
I'm an experienced fisherman, however I have mostly done catch and release. So I will have to get better at filleting fish.
Your experience sounds exciting. I look forward to getting to that point some day.
I do have about an acre of land with my house and to the south there is a farm field, so I may set up a target practice range on my property for the air rifle and perhaps a bow, if I get one some day.
I hope your hunting goes/went well this morning.
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Post by sd on Nov 14, 2009 23:35:07 GMT -5
Hi Bankedout, I totally agree- Any way you can spend time in Nature is gratifying. With your new move, hopefully you can incorporate that as part of your lifestyle- I enjoy fishing too- don't get to do it as often as I'd like - I usually take a float in my kayak down the Neuse River starting at the Falls Lake d**n- I can spend most of a day trying to hook up with largemouth bass-in the river- and if the bass fishing is slow, I've learned to keep some chicken livers in my cooler for catfish. I also catch and release because the Neuse is polluted. We do have some local lakes where the fish are considered OK to eat, I too am only a novice hunter- The last time I 'hunted' -with a shotgun- was 43 years ago-16 years old...with a friend and his father's shotgun. He shot , and I eventually killed a raccoon, dragged the carcass home, but we did nothing with it. That waste of an animal's life ultimately bothered me, and I never pursued hunting -until now. Any animal I hunt and intend to harvest, I will use the meat. Otherwise, I will let them pass by- May sound weird, I wish my quiver, along with the broadheads, held an arrow whose tip was blunt with a paint ball head. Something that would mark the shot, but not wound the animal if I didn't want to harvest it. If you elect to pick up a bow, and try archery, I suspect you will find it contagiously challenging- to develop the skills - even just target practicing. I would find a shop and take a lesson or two to start off with learning the proper technique, It's also a great way to unwind and change focus at the end of the workday. For hunting, I would recommend a compound bow- The compound bows of today- say a 60 or 70 pound pull, have a cam where when the arrow is pulled back, the "pull" on the string is reduced to 1/3 of the pull weight. This allows the archer to hold and aim the arrow at full draw with a minimum of effort. Compound bows also differ from traditional bows in that most commonly they come equipped with fiber optic sight pins that are used to align the target based on different distances to compensate for the drop of the arrow. This combination of reduced pull at full draw, and a peep sight and fiber-optic pins, yields the ability to make fairly precise shots- if the distance is judged properly. Conversely, a traditional recurve or long bow does not have any mechanism to reduce the pull weight. The further the arrow is pulled back, the greater the pressure becomes. At full draw- the archer is holding the full weight of the pressure, and after a few seconds, muscles start to strain, and the shot should be made- where a compound will allow one to hold an arrow at full draw for an extended period without strain. Traditional shooting is typically 'intuitive' without sights-where the archer learns over time how the arrow will travel. I would actually recommend that one try to learn the traditional intuitive style first, to develop proper technique. It would then be a simple step to adapt to a compound bow if one desired. If one learns on a compound bow first, I expect they would find it difficult to adapt to traditional shooting- Regardless of which type of archery one starts with- get some proper training with a few lessons- It will be money well spent-
Bow hunting here starts weeks before muzzle, and then shotgun seasons. I will likely only bow hunt this year- through the entire season- 8 deer are the limit- with does as well as bucks - The deer population is now so large, and the habitat is shrinking, .... Bow hunting requires you to be much closer to the quarry, whose senses are well adapted to detecting your motion, scent, and the slightest sound,. You listen for any tell-tale sound in the woods, but it's usually the flicker of motion in the corner of the eye that gets your attention. Sometimes it's only squirrels, and then suddenly the deer appear, almost silently usually, except when the fallen leaves are bone dry. When you are that close, and attempting to remain undiscovered, your senses are totally aware of the motions you are making, adrenalin is in your veins, heart is beating much faster, and any possible sounds, including your breathing will warn the quarry who will bolt in an instant. The draw on the arrow has to be smooth and silent, the aiming as precise as possible, the release smooth and controlled. That experience cannot be found in the target practice.
No luck this am or tonight- heard shots not far away this am- Had set my climbing stand in a pine in the midst of smaller scrub brush, with deer scrapes and rubs from a buck. But it was a good few hours spent regardless. As I got there, I paced off 17 paces in 3 directions from the tree and put some orange flagging tape on that point.- That would give me a 20 yard reference when I'm 15' up in the tree. I also took a paper cup, set it on the ground at that point, and as I got into position with the climbing stand 15' above the ground, I took out some target arrows and shot at the cup. It told me I was shooting 3" higher at that point than I expected to be. Even with the majority of the leaves now off the trees, I doubt that I will ever see any shot over 30 yards- Should you take up archery, you'll find it personally challenging, and rewarding to see your own improvement; There's a couple of great u-tube archery videos I need to post when I find them .
Good Luck!SD
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Post by sd on Nov 15, 2009 15:09:55 GMT -5
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Post by dg on Nov 15, 2009 17:09:27 GMT -5
1) to fillet a fish, lay the knife blade flat with the spine and scrape foward.
2) if using a compound bow, remember to hold the bow firm, because at release of the arrow, you return from low to high force; and the reaction to sudden force increase is a turning motion. With the recurve, you don't need this reminder.
3) You need a 30-06 (7.62 mm) with something like a 150 grain projectile to take down deer humanely.
4) are cross bows legal in either of your states? I've got a wildcat C-4 with 150 pull that puts target arrows through 7 inches of tightly stacked wall street journals.
5) unless you intend to hunt by ambushing at known distance, a laser rangefinder is a real asset to the archer. Knowing the speed of your arrow and the distance allows you to calculate the drop. You need to know how to do this quickly in your head to compensate for a different set sighting distance.
example: assume 300 fps light arrow if using 70 lb compound at 30 inch draw. (by comparison, 60 lb at 29 inch would give about 270 fps.) Assume that you presighted your bow for 33 yards (100 feet), but your laser says that your deer is at 150 feet.
drop = 1/2 *g*t^2 t = range/speed
100/300 = 1/3 sec; 150/300 = 1/2 sec 1/2*g = 16.09 feet
thus drop at 100 feet = 16.09*1/3*1/3 = 1.79 feet and drop at 150 feet = 16.09 *1/2*1/2 = 4.02 feet
If aiming by looking along the arrow for sighting (line of sight), these are how high above your target you would have to aim to compensate for drop at range.
However, were you to use the 100 foot range sighted aim setting to hit the deer at 150 feet, you would miss by 4.02 -[150/100*1.79] = 1.34 feet low (because your bow was sighted to miss by 1.79 feet high at 100 feet using line of sight). Thus you would have to aim at a point 1.34 feet above where you would want to hit on the deer.
If the deer chest is 2 feet high for a side shot and you want to hit dead center, you would need to aim about 4 inches above the back upper surface. (you need to be able to do this in your head quickly -- or fallback to the lazy approach of ambush at a known distance).
BTW, if you don't want to spend $300 on a laser rangefinder, I have one that is free and accurate to about 10% error (if you don't shake). My thumb width is one inch wide and if I hold my arm out straight parallel to my shoulders, my thumb is 30 inches from my right eye. Given that I know that a full grown deer stands about 5 feet high at the waist, I compare his relative height to the width of my thumb. I can estimate range as reference height x thumb/target ratio x (30/1). Law of similar triangles.
Example:
my thumb width is twice as tall as observed deer .... range = 5 x 2 x (30/1) = 300 feet
my thumb width is half as tall as observed deer .... range = 5 x 1/2 x (30/1) = 75 feet
or use trees of known height: assume maple trees 80 feet tall assume your eye to thumb distance is 32 inches assume you thumb width is 1.2 inches
your thumb width is 1/3 as tall as distant maple tree range = 80 x 1/3 x (32/1.2) = 711 feet
your thumb width is 3 times as tall as distant maple tree range = 80 x 3 x (32/1.2) = 6400 feet
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Post by sd on Nov 15, 2009 21:20:39 GMT -5
Hi DG Crossbows are legal in NC during archery season if one has gotten a doctor's excuse that the hunter cannot properly pull back a conventional bow ( muscle strain etc.) They almost passed it this year for all hunters though, and it would likely be a good thing. That crossbow you have obviously packs a lot of punch- I've only looked at them in the archery shops, and the way they have them set up, scope etc certainlyy can compete with guns for longer range shots. If my joints continue to act up, I may have one in the future You are very correct in how critical judging distance to the target is. I like the "use your thumb" method you demonstrate- and the calcs for arrow drop- I use carbon arrows with 100 grain tips-(I changed from 125 grain) Between 10 and 20 yards , I think there is a 3-4" drop. My bow is not a recent model- some newer ones are over 300 fps. more power, less drop. With a 125 grain tip, the drop is quite a bit larger. Most of the mechanical heads sold in the local archery shops here today are 100 grain- What I have done in my limited experience-I found many of my shots are at extremely close range- I set up my practice target in the yard, and pace off 10 big steps (10 yards) and shoot at that close distance and set my first fiber optic sight pin to that point. I had multiple pins on this new sight, but I elected to only use 1 additional, and set it for 25 yards. I removed the rest because it was just too much clutter for use in the field. I then use the gap between the pins to judge the distance between- the 10 and 25 pins. If I have a shot at 30 yards, My pin will be just slightly above my target point- To judge this in the field, I took a string line, paced off 10 steps, made a knot, then 20 step-knot, then 30 steps-knot (yards)- I then go back and pace off 5 big steps from the base line, perpendicular - to represent the distance I am climbing up into the tree. I stretched the line out from that 16' high point- back to the ground, and find that I am about 2 steps short of my 10 yard mark. The 20 yard mark is slightly less, Possibly 18-19 paces and at 30 yards, there's not much difference - The most significant difference is in the closer shot. A sq, + B sq = C sq. - When I go to the woods and select a tree to climb into. I pace off 8 paces (10 yards) and drop a piece of orange surveyor flagging tape, and then I pace off an additional 9 paces - and flag that (20 yards) I do that in 3 directions or so from the tree, and then I drop a styrafoam coffee cup on the ground, use my climbing platform and go up the tree. I prefer to be higher with the climber (20') than the fixed stands allow.(15-16') (less chance of being detected) That changes the distance by one step. Once in the stand,- If I have time, it's early, I take a couple of target shots at the cup, to see that my estimate of the distance and my sighting are accurate. My estimate of distances really changes as I go vertical- I'm judging distance between branches of trees, and the orange flag markers help with that. If I was hunting with a gun, that would be unnecessary So, while ground target practice is great,and essential- it's controlled and static. conditions change in the field, the target is usually not fixed for more than a few seconds at a time, and the distance estimate / calc is constantly changing - and the lighting conditions may be getting dim- or just starting to become light . I want to spend more time shooting from an elevated position at random targets, to develop my sense of distance. I likely will never try a shot much beyond 30 yards, although I have target practiced at 40. Most of my hunting is in a wooded area- I tried such a shot recently, in a stand on a hill and seriously underestimated the distance and undershot the target.
Here in NC, you have to hunt deer with a compound bow of 40 lb draw- minimum, and a recurve or long-bow of 45 # I believe- I can only draw about 60-65 pounds, but found that in the real environment, standing 12' up on a 12" wide platform, I was not able to make a draw without a great deal of strain-Couldn't spread my feet and get the same leverage as on the ground. and so I reduced the tension to 55# and that made a great deal of difference. I can make the draw without strain in any position now. I use the mechanical broadheads, that open on impact- I heard many other hunters complain about the traditional 3 blade fixed muzzy broadhead planing /drifting as it goes through the air , causing the shot to be off by several inches.. I don't personally know this to be true. The mechanical heads are collapsed around the shaft until impact, when the blades open - They tend to be expensive $40 for a 3 pack, but they do the job with the 2 deer I've harvested. I would differ with you regarding the technique of holding the bow firm- I have now been taught, that a tight grip tends to make the archer torque or twist the bow on release, affecting the flight of the arrow. What I have been shown/taught and what I now use, : I grip the bow with the left hand on the riser, and as I make the draw and bring tension on the string, I relax my fingers and 'cradle'the bow in the crook between thumb and forefinger, with fingers allowed to be relaxed and opened,curved , but, not touching the bow. There is a wrist rope, that loosely fits my wrist and is attached to the bow. The tension of my right arm pulling back on the string holds the bow balancing between the thumb and fore finger. On release, the bow will actually spring forward, and then is grasped as it contacts the fingers- At this point, the arrow has cleared the rest- It feels a bit awkward to adopt this technique, but I believe it definitely improved my shooting. Also, learning to relax the body in general is good for improving one's shooting. Poor shooting posture, too much draw, causes tension that ultimately affects the archer's results. Of course, each person's experience is theirs alone, and I am learning as I go- It's a great sport though, and I enjoy this new found challenge- Target shooting alone is a great personal challenge, hunting just elevates it to a different level. SD
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Post by dg on Nov 16, 2009 10:17:18 GMT -5
sd:
If you want the sport of hunting without killing or wounding, get some airsoft guns. You can shoot the .12 gram bbs at 100 fps against squirrels without harm and the .2-.28 gram bbs at 300 fps or more with distance of more than 50 feet against raccoons, rabbits, foxes and skunks.
Aerodynamic decay on these things is fierce -- yet they float without falling for near 100 feet due to backspin. With the .28s, you lose half of your velocity in 75 feet. With the .12s, you lose half in under 25 feet. So you won't wound anything unless you hit it in the eyes.
I find how you shoot your bow interesting. I'll have to try that to see if I can improve my archery shooting with my compound bow. I know I would never shoot my recurve that way.
Assuming you shooting at 55 lb at 29 inch draw with lightweight arrows from a compound bow capable of 300 fps with 70 lbs and 30 inch draw, I suspect your arrow velocity close to 260 fps (minus a tad for heavy tips).
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Post by dg on Nov 16, 2009 10:28:11 GMT -5
bankedout & sd:
I highly recommend "Addicted to archery", p.o. box 1022, New Albany, IN 47151 for everything in archery or crossbows. Small family operation that will tailor everything exactly for you, talk with you at length about how to do anything, will get you the best prices and even repair things for you. You can also google their website (it teaches you things).
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Post by sd on Nov 16, 2009 21:40:17 GMT -5
Hi DG- Thanks for the input on the airsoft guns- That may be something I could use in the future, and possibly even get my wife willing to experience the art of hunting - I like that idea-If I'm not going to harvest the animal for food, there's no purpose in killing it solely for the 'thrill' of the hunt. good alternative. For the present season, venison is still destined for table fare, and I may once add squirrel to the menu- My neighbor claims it's good, and I usually see plenty from my tree stand- Usually thinking it's a deer working it's way through the leaves- so I'll have to try it for one meal, and then decide ...It would also prove to be a challenging target at 10-20 yards. Your calc on my arrow velocity is likely very close. Newer bows can exceed 300 fps, I understand from some reading, that a really fast bow can be unforgiving for all but the most adept archers, magnifying one's flaws. A velocity question for you- If I am shooting at 260 fps, (or any speed for that matter) will the drop of the arrow over 10 yard increments be the same until the arrow hits the earth? Or is it compounded over distance? Say I have a 3" drop between 10-20 yards, will I also have the same drop 20-30; 30-40, 40-50? 50-60 etc? 100-110? Not that I plan on any olympic archery ...... Try that technique - just be sure to have a wrist strap - It feels awkward, because the riser is not pressed against the heel of your palm at all, and your left hand is pivoted straight -like your forefinger is pointing straight with your arm, and not tilted up, engaging the heel of the palm.. But give it a chance, it feels somewhat unnatural at first.... On release, I guess the bow does jump forward, and then touches my semi-opened and somewhat relaxed finger tips , which then grasp the bow back to my palm? It all occurs in a split second or so. At the same time, the arrow has then released. The wrist strap prevents the bow from falling to the ground during this process, but I've never had this actually occur. In this 'learning to bow-hunt' ... I have recognized that I need to practice with as close to real conditions as I experience in the field- - Being elevated is one major item.... Also, Often the shot is in waning light. On Sundays you are not allowed to hunt in NC- This next may sound quite weird- I start target practicing in the evening , and as it starts to get dark, instead of going inside, I set 3-"" diameter balloons on the target, and continue shooting through the different stages of waning light. I try my hand at different distances- Take a shot, and move back, Take another shot, and move back...In the forest, 30 minutes after sundown can be quite dark. It's hard to judge distance as the light changes. I recently purchased a new set of fiber optic sights that also has a very small UV light to power the fiber optic cables when daylight is too weak. This helps in the field that last 15 minutes ... BTW... When you don't hear the balloons popping anymore, it's time to go to the house! SD
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Post by dg on Nov 17, 2009 10:07:50 GMT -5
sd:
No. drop = 1/2* g * t^2 = 16.09*t^2 and range = V * t
example @ 250 fps arrow constant speed
range (feet) .................... t (seconds) .................... drop (inches) .................... drop change
0 .................................... 0 .................................... 0 ....................................... n/a 30 ...................................0.12 ............................... 2.78 .................................. 2.78 60 ...................................0.24 ...............................11.12 ................................. 8.34 90 ...................................0.36 ...............................25.02 .................................13.90 120 .................................0.48 ...............................44.49 .................................19.47 150 .................................0.60 ...............................69.51 .................................25.02
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