bankedout/dg discussion moved here

[sd]

Thanks for taking the time to work that up DG!
I'm surprised at how large a progressive increase there is in drop in inches, although I thought there seemed to be an increase as I varied my distance target practicing from 10 to 30 yards, with a pin set at 10 and another at 25, and trying to fine tune the targeting between the pins in the field. It definitely seemed that the further back I went, the larger the drop . I likely would never take a shot much beyond 30 yds, but it's good to understand what's going on.

Without getting too complicated for a country boy- If arrow speed is a constant, time is a constant between equal increments of distance, what is the cause of the increasing drop in inches ? , and what is the "drop change"? It appears to be a constant 5.56-
You've given me the practical #'s- got my layman's curiosity peaked as to what the others mean.>
Thanks again for taking the time- !
SD

[dg]

sd:

drop = 1/2 x g x t^2 ; range = V x t

(drop varies with the square of time; whereas range varies linearly with time)

("drop change" is the amount of drop in each 30 foot increment of range)

And yes, 30 yards is about maximum range for bows and crossbows because of drop. My crossbow shoots lightweight 20 inch arrows at 340 fps. That means (ignoring drag) that it will travel to a height of 1800 feet vertically and a max range at 45 degrees up angle to 3600 feet. Yet if shot horizontally, the arrow will fall 16.09 feet in one second. At 340 fps, that occurs at 113 yards. At 30 yards, drop is a much more reasonable 1.134 feet.

If I am bench shooting with a gun or crossbow, I use my sights as is and take my first shot aimed perfectly at the bullseye center. Then, I re-aim for my second shot as though repeating the first. While holding the weapon steady in this position, I adjust my sights until they are aimed at where my first shot hit. Then I re-aim for the bullseye. It should hit where I've aimed.
Of course, that's a lot harder to do with a bow.

[sd]

Thanks for the info DG, and for taking the time to work that up-

The drop in inches sequentially increases over time and distance. Thought logically that would be the case- I'm very surprised at how much though! That info will be helpful as I try to adjust my shooting using just 2 pins- a 10 yd and a 25 yd.
It shows how critical learning to judge distance is, with that amount of increased change- While I haven't gone out on a 3-D course yet- (Different animal targets set over different conditions & distances ) I understand you're not allowed to use a range-finder to guage distance.

What is the "drop-change" ? I see that it works out to be 5.56 constant over each data point-?

Dec 5 I'm taking an all day advanced archery & safety course sponsored by the NC State Wildlife - I think there's a fair amount of archery practive- as well as a focus on hunting safety beyond the basic hunter's safety course. Looking forward to it.

(The greatest reason for hunting fatalities in NC over past years is hunters falling out of tree stands- )

Thanks for the Info!SD

[dg]

sd:

drop change was just the difference of drop between intervals (single delta of a difference table).

Your 5.56 double delta value is just 32.174 ft/sec^2 x 12 in/ft x (0.12 sec)^2 =5.56 in
Because you were interested in 30 ft increments (10 yds), time increment for an arrow moving at 250 fps horizontally computes to 0.12 sec. So yes, for an arrow going 250 fps, drop per 10 yd interval increases at 5.56 inches per interval except for the first, which does half that or 2.78 inches.

[sd]

Thanks for the follow up-
This pm I went out with target arrows, 6" styrafoam bowls, and safety harness. Set the target bowls out at random distances from a fixed ladder stand, and spent several hours target shooting from the elevated position- at random unknown distances.
The furthest target point was well beyond my 25 yard pin-and I sighted the pin high - Turned out to be about 32 yds I had some modest success- but the exercise pointed out that such practice- at random unknown distances- is worthwhile .
SD

[sd]

Going to share a recent hunting experience-
Friday AM I took my climbing tree stand and selected a spot to hunt from, I saw a few deer, but they seem to be interested in the acorns under the Oak trees 50 yards North. I made a poor shot and underestimated the distance - and clearly undershot my target.......
I moved the tree stand to that area for Friday afternoon, with no signs of any life- includinmg the ever-present squirrells.
I left my stand attached to the tree with a cable lock around the tree.
Sat AM I woke early, and headed into the woods- I wanted to be in position long before sunrise- I knew I would be making some noise- both traveling through the woods and then climbing the tree. This is a different experience- the air is a crisp 33 degrees, the leaves crunch underfoot and sound like a megaphone is broadcasting my arrival.
I found my tree, and my climbing stand, and 10 minutes later I was 15' above the ground and awaiting daybreak.
BTW- I wear Blaze Orange, but when walking through the woods-in the dark- , I have a LED headlight that should tell any other would-be-hunters that the noise they are hearing is me trampling through the woods and not a deer. But you never know .... best to not take chances Might get somebody wanting to take some 'sound' shots.
As sunrise starts, the woods are illuminated with shafts of light from the EAst broken by the trees- Most of the trees have given up, their leaves, the exception, some raspy browned and whithered old oak leaves rattle in the morning slight breeze. \
I detect some noise from the West, a movement in the leaves; slow but progressive. It's a deer, coming up through the woods from a low wetlands area., It appears to be continuing uphill towards my stand- was 50 yards away, and I can only glimpse it's outline - Can't tell yet whether it's a doe or a buck- too much scrub brush foliage in the way.
I wait, noting the opening's it's likely to enter into my field range, and preparing myself to take the shot.
Suddenly, I hear a larger noise from the West, approaching quickly, and a group of 6 deer come running through my site, and the single grazing deer-my potential target- joins them in flight.
They run past my position- about 25 yards out-Well within my range, but not while running- They stop 50 yards East of me, and I can barely see any glimpse of them up the hillside.
About 10 seconds later, I hear a new noise from the West, and I think that perhaps this is the buck following all of the does- As the noise comes closer, as I first spot the motion I think this is maybe a large fox, but as it gets to the 25 yard range, I realize this is an animal that I have never seen- This is a coyote that has been trailing the deer herd hoping the young one would fall back and become easy prey.
It stops just 25 yards directly from me- I decide that this animal is one that I should shoot- but it turned immediately and retreated to the West- possibly sensing my presence or attempted motion of the draw.
The deer worked their way closer to my position, and I was prepared to take one 25 yard shot when the doe cleared the tree.
About that time, they decided to leave en masse. Don't know what caused that- perhaps one sensed my motion- or perhaps the coyote was returning.....
It was an interesting experience. Climbing down in the dark, and working my way through the woods to the path to the house. all by LED headlight =
Each time I make this solitary journey home, I feel as though I have been given a new experience-perhaps taking a little of each day with me.
It has been a solitary, but personally rewarding experience. Not just that morning, but each time I have gone to the woods in search of learning and experiencing more.
This has no direct relevance to trading stocks , But I can't help but wonder, if I won't come away from this experience with a different viewpoint. SD

[dg]

sd:

Be careful around those coyotes. They tend to be most active from sunset to sunrise; and they often hunt in packs like wolves. You shouldn't hunt alone. You should also have guns with you just in case you meet up with something unexpected.

[sd]

Thanks for the advice- I hadn't given any thought to running across a single coyote- never even considered a pack of coyotes- particularly at night, when I'm working my way back through the woods-I simply felt most animals would flee the noise of a human walking. ..something to consider ....a pack ....
I had ,however, considered the remote possibility of having a confrontation with a buck -one of our company owners was dove hunting this spring and a buck charged out of a thicket and caught him in the left knee and broke his leg- Or at least that was his explanation.... Since bucks are in Rut now- several weeks ago, a kid went after an overthrown ball into the woods here, and disturbed a buck who attacked and severely injured him.
Those are 2 aspects of hunting safety I never heard mentioned- in the hunter's safety course .Remote, but definitely a possibility.
Yes , ideally you don't hunt alone- I take the usual precautions- Always wear a safety harness when in a tree stand- ladder or climber- I let my wife know where I'll be hunting- She knows to expect me home 30 minutes after dark- or by 9 am.
Cell phone, and a whistle. and a spare 6' nylon safety strap with loops on each end- in the event you fall out of the tree stand and are hanging suspended, and can't climb back onto the stand, the strap enables you wrap it around the tree, and get a foot in the loop and raise yourself up . Blaze Orange hat and vest, and when walking through the woods predawn, or after sunset, I use a led headlight to let any other potential hunters know that noise coming through the woods is a person-not a potential deer, and doesn't qualify for a sound shot.
I'll have to give the potential unexpected some more consideration-
A pistol would likely be the best selection, but my wife won't relinquish hers without a fight! Budget constraints prevent me from buying my own- Carrying my loaded shotgun through the woods in the dark is not an option. I could see falling over a tree root and becoming a statistic !
Road flare, airhorn- something portable and accessible.-
Thanks again-raised my awareness -SD

[bankedout]

Thanks for sharing your experience sd. It sounds like a rewarding hobby. I hope to be able to do something similar soon.

[dg]

Personally, I'd rather hunt near a trail in the woods with both feet on the ground. I'd have a comfy seat behind a suspended camo sheet with peep holes. I shoot right through the peep hole. I'd know my ambush spot and have taken practice arrow shots there such that range aiming isn't a question. (this from a guy who hasn't hunted since childhood)

But I'd have a buddy with me and my sw 1911 and my big MF'n bowie knife on my belt. My buddy would be carrying a bolt action 30-06 in case we met up with an unfriendly bear.

[bankedout]

dg,

That sounds like a nice way to hunt.

[sd]

Hope you get the time to enjoy some type of recreation soon Bankedout- I know you've got to be very busy with the move, and the business. A few hours diversion in a hobby is beneficial .
One other hunting resource to look to-if any are interested , is to look to your LOCAL state wildlife organization. This Saturday I'll be taking an 'advanced' archery course sponsored by the NC Wildlife- I signed up for this several months ago, this was the first one scheduled this season near my area. This is an additional class beyond the mandatory hunter's safety designed primarily to promote the sport.
They are holding an 8 hr class focused solely on archery, with several hours of classroom stuff- Archery facts , history, building your own string , and then 5 hours of field practice and shooting. Compound bows, recurve bows, long bows.... It strikes me as an invaluable opportunity to gain experience and constructive critiquing from people that have been doing this sport for decades, and essentially volunteer their time and knowledge to assist others in improving their skills in this sport. They have a wide range of attendees, from Novice archers like myself to competition shooters, and hunters who want to get an archery certification to hunt with a bow- a requirement in some other states. I'm taking the class primarily for the learning experience..Hoping to get my future son-in-law to join me....

I can appreciate hunting from a blind-DG- I actually set up several initially , and I still have 2 set up- . I only used them a few times, with no initial success, and went to elevated stands- several of which have been in place for years on the property I am hunting. I also purchased a climbing stand which is my preferred now.Versatility, mobility, large platform.
However, I believe there is a distinct innate advantage in hunting from an elevated position - (It's a hunting requirement here in NC that anyone using a rifle only shoot from an elevated position- minimum 8' in this county, 10' in others- ) This is a safety concern, designed that the trajectory of a rifle shot be downwards.
The advantage of an elevated stand is visibility, a wider targeting area, and potentially less obvious to the prey from both the natural field of vision and smell.
( Let me add that the majority of hunting fatalities-and injuries here in NC- come from falls from tree stands-Not from hunters shooting themselves or one another- )

I've had several amazing (for me) up close experiences with game -mostly deer- walking directly beneath me or within a few feet of a ladder stand- and actually turning and looking directly up at me-in camo gear, Eyes look amber in the pre-dawn light-
Several weeks ago I had a doe stop 4' from the bottom of a ladder stand I was in, snap her head up to stare at me for 3 seconds, look away, and then snap her head back up, and then run off just 30' . The following weekend I had 2 does walk directly beneath me in my climbing stand.-
In my climbing stand, which works it's way up the tree like an inchworm- with no ladder attached, I've had deer actually walk directly beneath me. I wasn't familiar with these devices, saw one demonstrated by the hunter safety course instructor and had to get one- It was a great investment!
I bought the aluminum one from thingy's for $140.00 on sale and it is great- wide platform, only 20 pounds- 7 pounds lighter than the steel and less expensive platform.
I have rapidly gotten accustomed to using this climbing stand, and absolutely recommend it - The mobility- you find a likely spot, trail, scrape, and can get up a tree in range within 10 minutes with minimal noise- Want to move the next day? No problem....
A ladder stand takes 2-3 people to set up- The climber is individual, personal freedom. Move it daily, one person ....
Most ladder stand platforms are 12' above ground. I now prefer the ability to get a bit higher that the climber offers- and I set myself up @ 15-16' base to ground. As the foliage is dropping, the higher elevation both hides me and gives greater visibility.
I don't know if I mentioned that I'm scared of heights?
Well, i am, but it is no longer a factor in the climber- Safety harness attached, moved higher up the tree as I progressively climb higher- It is no longer a concern- but it once was. It didn't take too many climbs to gain the confidence .... I set 2 rope ties from the upper and lower climber sections so they could not drop apart more than 30". The lower section will self-center itself on the tree if it drops - Once up to the desired height, a 1" nylon tie is tightened around the cable around the tree. for the lower platform. This locks the platform to the tree. Cannot slide down. Amazingly simple device that works-
Having the climbing platform be level when 16' high requires it get mouinted more upright at the starting point- base of the tree- As the tree diameter gets smaller as the climber goes higher, the once angled up climber platform starts to level out. Standing and aiming from a level platform is so much easier.
Bottom line, is learning to use a self-climber is worth-while-
SD

[dg]

Is yours like this, sd?

treeflagesystem.com/

[sd]

Hi DG,
My climber is basically similar- but theirs is definitely the cadillac tree stand. Huge platform, seat, Almost a lounge chair in the sky! Of the 5 photos, mine most resembles the archer in the 5th one. The technique of using it is identical though.

You may already know how this is done- but I didn't until a few months ago- Inchworm style hunter climbs higher-

The basics are the same- 2 separate frame components - a foot platform, and a separate sitting platform . Both have a toothed edge in the aluminum where it pushes against the bark of the tree, and a cable that wraps around the back of the tree, The rubber coated steel cable has end loops, and slides inside the hollow tube frame, which has holes every 3" for adjusting to different sized tree, The loops are held in place in the tube frame at the various holes by a 1/4" diameter cotterpin- It allows you to adjust from a small diameter tree (8" up to 20" ")
The weight of the hunter on the platform, causes the toothed edge and cable to grip the tree- The first thought would be the thing would just slip and slide down to the ground- Doesn't happen though, as long as there is downward weight/pressure on the platform. The toothed edge doesn't damage the bark of the tree btw.
The seat platform is constructed with the same cable attachment with holes to adjust the cable to accomodate different diameter trees. It is mounted to the tree above the foot platform section , approx 20-30" higher.

The hunter - wearing a safety harness , can rotate the upper platform slightly to offset it from the lower, put his hands and weight on the upper platform frame, pull himself up through the upper frame, and at the same time step onto the lower foot platform, and then fully stand erect- The weight of his body on the foot platform locks the cable and platform to the tree- (At ground level, the platform is tilted up away from the base of the tree about 6" above evel.)
He then attaches above the platforms, his nylon safety strap, and cinches it to the tree as high as he can reach above the seat platform; and then secures the loose end to his safety harness- which is a loop tie attached to the harness just above the shoulder blades.

Now the hunter has to get his tree stand higher, He sits on the outside seat platform bar- facing the tree. This causes the cable and toothed edge of the seat platform to grip the tree, and he puts all of his weight on it. He then takes his dangling feet, hooks his toes into the lower foot platform, and lifts his knees up- The lower foot platform comes higher, including the cable attaching it to the tree. The foot platform is now approx 8" higher . The hunter slips off the seat bar and puts his weight on the foot platform, causing the cable and toothed edge to grip the tree- He is now fully standing with all his weight on the foot platform, and stands erect, facing the tree. He grasps the side rails of the upper seat platform and lifts his arms up, causing the seat platform and attaching cable to move higher. He then sits back onto the seat platform, and with his legs/toes, lifts up on the lower foot platform and raises it another 6-8", and repeats the process. When his seat platform cable reaches his safety cable strap, he loosens the safety cable around the tree, and slides it up again as high as he can reach, and continues to repeat the process inchworm style in small but efficient steps, raising the foot platform/seat platform/foot platform.

During this process, the hunter is alternately putting weight on the seat platform or the foot platform. When the weight is no longer on one of the components,seat or foot platform; it becomes possible for that component to slip or slide down the tree- That is why it is essential for the seat platform be attached to the foot platform with 2 nylon ropes tying the two together. Without being attached to each other, if the hunter has his weight on the seat platform and lifts up the foot platform, potentially the foot platform cable becomes loose from the tree, and if it slips off the hunter's foot, can slide down the tree, leaving the hunter stranded on the single platform. On my platform, I've adjusted the 2 ropes for the maximum 32" - and tied them towards the tree side of the frame.
Once at the desired height- there is no limit- I take a 1" nylon strap and cinch the cable surrounding the tree tight- It locks it to the tree whether I have weight on it or not. Cannot slip or slide - When climbing down, the reverse procedure is employed. The cinching strap is loosened, Feet lift the foot platform, and tilt forward slightly,giving slack to the cable around the tree, allowing the foot platform to slide down the tree. The 2 ropes autoimatically 'catch' the foot platform and cause it to reconnect to the tree. The safety harness progressively will be lowered down the tree as the platforms are lowered. I would estimate that it takes me about 10- 12- minutes to attach to a tree and climb int0 position .
My stand comes with a seat and foam backrest that is designed to strap to the tree. However, I intend to remove that seat alltogether, because I have found that I prefer to have the seat platform almost sitting on top of the foot platform so as to not interfere with my bow and aiming at shots below me.
The higher gun rest /seat bar can interfere. I've also learned to reverse my attached quiver so the arrows don't hit the bar of the stand. Also the seat and backrest seemed ideal for someone that wanted to fall asleep in the stand- It was "sunk in" difficult to get to a standing position from- I will likely get an independant seat rest that straps to the tree, but leaves me almost standing upright if I think I have hours to spend.
Motion and noise are the hunter's bane- and on an absolutely still morning, trying to move and get upright from that lowered seat is a bad combination.
I got home early-3 pm today, a rainy day, and took my climber out - The seat and base platform will merge together, and be attached with the nylon strap that secures the cable to the tree for easy transport- The foot platform has 2 nylon backstrap straps on the frame, allowing it to be back packed in.
Weight is about 20 pounds- Not a bad trade-off- Didn't see a darn thing, rains had moved in, and I had strapped a camo umbrella to the tree above my position-
The woods are almost wide open now , with most leaves having fallen. You start to feel exposed in the stand, and I prefer to be a bit higher- 15-16' to the foot platform- Reduces concerns about scent being detected when higher, and also motion being detected.

The other component I bring with me when selecting a new site for the stand, is a pair of limb loppers- or I'd also try a pole saw. Removing small limbs close to the stand that can interfere with a shot is prudent. The versatility of a climber is that you can set it up a few feet higher or lower to compensate for branches that may be in the way.
As previously mentioned, I have had a long and healthy respect/fear of heights. Learning to use this climber in both daylight and dark, with a safety harness- has eliminated most of that fear-n and fear is usually illogical.I was honest to goodness Scared the first time I climbed into a 12' ladder stand I found out in the woods,, and stood up on the single top step some 2-3 months ago-Had to hold onto that tree! At some point in this process, That fear of heights -in this situation- has simply disappeared. I have that much confidence in the process and the equiptment, that I feel I could easily climb from 20 to 30' without any fear. As long as I do it properly!.
At some point I'll try to get some photos uploaded-
SD.

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[dg]

Well guys, you got me reinterested in hunting. I own a remington 742 autoloader 30-06 semi automatic rifle I have nicknamed the "jam-o-matic." Recently I found that remington has made a relatively new version of that gun that is pump action (never jams) called the remington 7600. So I had to get it.

HO! HO! HO! Merry Christmas to me. I bought it today, along with very nice scope and a couple of boxes of 180 grain soft points (good for bear). I also bought a laser range finder (5 yds to 1000 yds @ +/- 1 yd.) Say hello to archery accuracy (and hello to paying off my credit card in 4-5 months.)

www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_7600.asp